Panerai = overpriced?

Discussion in 'Panerai Watches' started by Erwin, Feb 12, 2012.

  1. Erwin

    Erwin

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    This question has been asked a thousand times and this is the comment that I think sums them all up!

    I think not...Why?
    Because it is:

    1. Limited production: < 30,000 watches per year. Less than 300,000 watches are ever made so far.

    2. Pure usage history: Used by Italian Navy in WW1 & WW2. Was restricted to military usage up to 1994. No other brand has this history of 100% Navy exclusivity from 1860 to 1997. No one has access to this mystery brand till 1995. In fact, from 1860 till 1994, anyone having this watch in Italy or Egypt is either a Navy frogman or a Navy deck officers.

    3. Design: Big is in. 47mm is 44mm of yesterday. 60mm is coming soon with arrival of PAM341 that will relive Egyptian's 2/56 model in 1956. 1950's bubble Case is so cool. Luminor shape is so simple yet tough looking & masculine. Rad is dressy but still project the rough image.

    4. Technology: Luminor for ligibility under-water & not to mention my old-man eyes & Crown guard for water resistance. Since 1930s, it's been used for nightly underwater sabotage bombings mission in WW1 & WW2 and by deck officers in Italian Navy. Rolex missed the boat and had to ask a lady to swim across English Channel to sell it's Oyster after WW2.

    5. Heritage: Current models still maintain strong connection with 1930s model with PAM232 & 249, 1940s with PAM0 & 111 & 1950s release with PAM203, 267, 217 & 127. People buy these watches to associate themselves with XaMas flotilla of Italian Navy's bravery during WW1 & 2 who sank the highest tonnage per head in mankind history.
    In 1940s, a single XaMas frogman can sink 100,000 tonnes per month.
    A team of just 8 frogmen brought Mediteranean sea lanes to a complete stop in 1930s to 1940s riding on just mere PIGS wearing Rads & Lums that they caused much heated debate & curse in British parliment under Churchill.
    No watch brand has ever struck so much damage and no watch brand has ever being mentioned by any statesman in any stateshouse, ever.

    Other brands had to sent watches to the moon, underwater, north pole, Antarticas, Everest & give the watches to Pan-AM pilots & James Bond, Rubbens Barrachelo, Governator, team Alinghi, the flop Michelle Wie, Anika and sport figures, actor & actresses and place their watches on magazines, papers, F1 & movies to sell.

    Panerai has 130 years 100% usage where every single watch & instruments they made are used by solely Italian Navy & no one else.
    This is not a mere sponsorship or stick some stickers like what some watch brands do.
    This is real war where you see Italians joining the Axis with Germany & Japan and fought the Allied in battle of deaths. All of XaMas commados never survive both wars.
    If Panerai was a fluke, why was the Italian Navy divers risk their lives with the Rads, Lums, Subs for over 130 years?
    The fact that XaMas was so feared in the Mediteranean is a proof of supremacy of Panerai watches and they warrant no more ads to pull sales thru.

    6. Coolness: It's e very few manual winding watch left in e open-mart nowadays. And, it's e only high-horlogerie brand without any ambassador. Famous people buy Panerai to show off and make a statement that he's tough & cool. Panerai don't go after them and ask them to endorsement.
    Most of other brands ask losers like Rubbens Barachello & winners alike to lend their name. Panerai couldn't give hoot. Ads blitz? What's tat?

    7. Innovation: Most brands like AP ROO models only change materials to sell. Panerai had to innovate Rads, Lums & Crown Guard without anyones help for real military applications daily usage for 130 years. This is not innovation for few times usage to the moon or Everest but constant usage day after day by Italian Navy divers. Since 2002, they made their own mvmts.

    8. Value & appreciation: Panerai is the very few brands where you buy to wear & sell as used pieces with the least losses. This is an understatement as most Paneristi do make money on all models over time.
    Even Rolex & PP cannot command appreciation that saw almost all of Panerai models from 1997 till now; PAM1, 2, 4, 9, 16, 21, 22, 23, 28, 36, 56, 123, 127, 187, 190, 194, 203, 217, 219, 232, 239, 249, 292, 309, 322 and soon 312, 305, 317, 320, 332 & 341 command appreciation from 10% to 3500% since launch even after we discount the price drop due to this depression.
    No other brand can give such a high valuation appreciation on so many models in just slighly 10 years after public launch.
    If you consider Pre-Vendome models from before 1997, the price appreciations for every single Panerai ever made from 1860 till 1997, it's even more mind boggling at over 4000 to 8000%.
    The very fact that you only see a submarine PIG model on the display shelf of every AD in the world is a solid testament to this fact.
    Many PAM special edition models are sold the very day it's launched.
    Regular edition models has wait list of up to 6 years.

    Look how much PP 5711/ 5712 & 5980 has crashed?
    How about the crash in AP EOD, T3, Polaris, Alinghi, RB1, RB2 & 3 prices?
    All are 20 - 40% down.
    All are grails.
    Look at Pre-V & PAM1, 2, 4, 9, 16, 21, 22, 23, 28, 36, 56, 123, 127, 187, 190, 194, 203, 217, 219, 232, 239, 249, 292, 309, 322 prices....are they down by 20% since Aug-08?

    Based on these 8 factors, I can conclude it's the history, heritage, technology, innovation, design, coolness, value & ltd production of Panerai that justify paying USD20k for a watch that only cost USD300 to build.

    Many distractors argue that Panerai's ETA6497, 7750 movements made them cheap....my arguments is even Patek 5959 dun take USD300k to make.
    ETA6497 & 7750 is a sturdy & robust mvmts & the Panerai who use to place Rolex ebouche use it for Italian Navy tells a lot of it's robustness.
    Many PAMs are still ticking till today...

    Other sports brands' models from U-Boat, B&R, IWC, EWC, Fortis, TAG, Omega, AP & Breitling, Rolex & etc are sponsoring events & people to buy into Panerai lineage.....
    Panerai simply supply Italian Navy real military watches & instruments that has went thru wars....

    Simply put, people like me will kill for any Pre-V, a PAM1, 2, 4, 9, 16, 21, 22, 23, 26, 28, 36, 56, 123, 127, 217, 232, 239, 249, 292, 309, 322, 317, 332, 341 & etc just bcos I want to associate myself to XaMas Flotilla self-sacrifice, bravery, brotherhood & successes.

    The very fact Paneristi forum that only has 30,000 watches to kill each other for every year has top 3 rank and Rolex Forum with 3 million watches per year forum is only top 50 explains a lot...

    I use to swear by Rolex, AP & PP and nothing else...
    Today, after losing so much much money on Rolex, AP, PP & etc, I dare to say only Panerai offers me value for investments & 1000% brand satisfaction.

    Watch is like an art appreciation. If you want under-price for value, buying watches is wrong move.
    You'll be better off buying Pounds sterling, EURO, California, Singapore, Japan & HK properties, Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, Enron, Worldcom, Satyam & Stanford shares, DBS High Notes 5 & 10, unit trusts & join Lehman Brothers, AIG, Sunshine Empire & Madoff scheme
  2. SPACE-DWELLER

    SPACE-DWELLER

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    Great post, Erwin! :goodpost:

    Personally, I love Panerai (and have owned a PAM 312) but I must say that I find SOME of the PAMS too expensive considering some of the ETA movemens that are inside the watches...

    For instance this Special Edition recently with the New York engraving on the caseback? Can't recall the model number right now. No wonder it didn't have an exhibition caseback since there was an unmodified ETA movement inside..

    Overall, I think that the "inhouse" movement PAMS are reasonably priced, though.

    In terms of resale, most Panerai's are on par with Rolex (some Ltd editions even fetch a lot more than MSRP when resold).
  3. drtooth73

    drtooth73

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    That was the 380, I think with plain movement.
    I do agree with Erwin that Panerai's exclusivity allows their watches to command high price. In size and versatility, I believe their competitor is AP offshore, and ROO is more expensive.
    I also think that their basic historic models, like 112, 000, etc, hold their value extremely well.
  4. BlueB6

    BlueB6

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    I think they are overpriced. For OP to charge $7,000 for a watch with a 6497 in it is just insane. And charging the same or more for watches with 2824s in it, and so on.. and charging $10K for a base in-house movement... just not worth it, IMO.

    And I like the brand. I've owned a few of them and own a couple of hommage project watches. But I'd never pay what they're charging now because so much of that price tag is hype. There will be a market correction on the resale market, in the future.
  5. leopardprey

    leopardprey

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    Well, in terms of militry usage, by frogmen and other special operations personnel, Rolex blows Paneria out of the water by a ratio of around 100 to one. Do a little more research on the Italian frogmen of WWII, nothing really impressive.

    Panerais are unique watches due to their unique crown, and at the time larger size. Personally, I thin the inhouse Panerai movements are fragile, compared fo good solid ETA or Rolex movement. Like the Panerai base models, but the rest no thanks. Definately a cult following. But, from what I have seen, many Panerai wearers have the watch, but dont walk the life. Where as with Rolex many have and are, have the watch and have used and walk the life, just not a member of any clubs or forums. Not to say i do not like panerai wathces, i have owned several. An would not mind a base model in the future. Dnt care much for the oversized leather straps and buckles though, a slimmer leatehr strap or nato looks better. Rolex does not really pay ofr people to wear, many explorers and spec ops personnel have bought and worn over the last fifty years with their own money.
  6. Evan614

    Evan614

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    I don't think OP would be where it is right now if it wasn't Sly's proactive purchases and his Hollywood status in 'promoting' the brand.
    I think Sly put them on the map.
  7. stiff muckler

    stiff muckler

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    Thumper's law

    "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all."

    stiff thinks dat Panerai is .. . .. . .. . . . . .. . . . . . .. never mind

    sm iiH!
  8. colemanitis

    colemanitis

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    Sure, they're overpriced, just like Rolex or any other luxury brand. Panerai's prices, however, are in line with their value. Panerai's excellent resale value and customer demand are proof of that. I think that makes sense. :lol:
  9. Marrk

    Marrk

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    It was after WWI, not WWII, but we get your point.


    Good post. :thumbsup:
  10. BlueB6

    BlueB6

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    It wasn't WW1 at all, since AFAIK scuba equipment hadn't been invented in WW1 and OP didn't start making dive watches (with the help of Rolex who made the movement and the cases) until the late 1930s and then into the war.

    And to be fair to Rolex, given the depression, I don't think a lot of people had the money (or need) for a waterproof watch, so the marketing stunt was well timed with the world out of depression, out of war and lots of money flowing on rebuilding economies and countries.
  11. advocatia

    advocatia

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    "Overpriced" is, I think, a matter of perspective. Most luxury goods are probably by definition, overpriced. Panerai and Rolex included.

    A $150 piece of luggage will get your belongings to the same destination as will a $2500 Louis Vuitton suitcase.
    A $20,000.00 Toyota will get you where you need to go in the same time and relative comfort as a $120,000.00 Mercedes.
    And of course, a $100 Casio will keep just as accurate time as a $25.000.00 Rolex.

    My point is that some people buy for prestige, others for the sense of having earned it, others because they are obnoxious wanna-be's, and some simply because they can afford the finer things in life. Panerai gets knocks because of their movements. Well, I have an 88 that keeps dead accurate time. I like the Panerai style and although I am not wealthy, I can easily afford it. So for me, even if it is overpriced, I don't care. I like it. I have had probably 6 different Rolex in my time, all brand new. Were they overpriced? Hell yeah but I didn't care. I loved them all.

    It's like a beautiful woman. If you look hard enough you can find some flaw. I prefer to see the big picture, to enjoy the ability to wear a kick-ass timepiece and refuse to get bogged down in thoughts of whether it's "worth it". A hot watch makes you feel great, no?

    As for Panerai .... either you get it or you don't. For those who don't, you're really missing out. :)
  12. advocatia

    advocatia

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    Contemporary, accurate, stylish and overpriced. My PAM 88 M series, which I bought new at about 24% off retail.
    LOVE LOVE LOVE this frikkin' watch !!

    20111122_165313.jpg
  13. Marrk

    Marrk

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    I thought you were referring to the Mercedes Gleitze swim in 1927. Now I am confused.
  14. leopardprey

    leopardprey

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    Good article about her swim in the free Rolex app. Yes, SCUBA equipement was not made until early 40s. Think above poserer was rigth as well, that it was Slys endorsements that help launch the brand to the public. Rolex has been used and proven in far more militry special operations missions, well before panerai was really on the map. In some wash thohgh you can say rolex and panerai are togeth, since the first panerais sed rolex movements. When i think of dive watches, used in military spec ops, then bp fifty fathoms and rolex sub are what comes to mind. Hec they were both even issue items at times in the past. Our combat dive teams, for example, had tudor dive watches issued. US army special forces and us navy spec warfare teams had bp and rolex issued at times in early 60s. An then countless others bought them with their own coin. So just saying if you really want a watch with a link to military dive ops, get a BP FF or a Rolex Sub.
  15. Pete17

    Pete17

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    Good post Chad, I agree whole heartedly.
    Panerai make a fine watch and I do like a few models but their history is not in the same league as Rolex and others imho.

    Are they over priced?
    Any watch over $50 is over priced. ;)

    BTW Erwin, great original post. You make some strong arguments.
    One day I hope to own a Panerai.

    Cheers


    Sent from my Droid
  16. Vincent65

    Vincent65

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    everything is overpriced, especially watches!
  17. leopardprey

    leopardprey

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    Now dont get me wrong, i do like Panerais, but the cultish stigma of them and the overuse of their very little usage un history confunds me. Now, I do really like the simplicity of the panerai model 176, and could even see myself flipping the explorer ii in the future for ne, possibly, as the 176 is a great watch. But, yeah, overpriced, much more so than Rolex. Well, lets see, panerai has couple actors and a handful of defunct axis combat swimmers. Rolex has Col. Bull Simion, Chuck
    Yeager, pan am pilots, SF, SEALs, RMC divers, Ed V, and Steve McQueen and Paul Newman(actors but both combat vets). But, alas, I still like panerais and at thue time of the watch time mag article, i rved about them and was wearing one. I could also go for a model 116. And well at least Panerai has one pretty good explorer to their name.
  18. Vincent65

    Vincent65

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    I can't see myself ever buying one. No appeal for me, really.
  19. colemanitis

    colemanitis

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    Yep! :thumbsup:
  20. Archer

    Archer

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    They are both just watches to me, and the history of either really never comes into it. I don't care who has worn what in the past - if I like the watch and can afford it, I'll buy it.

    I doubt most people but a Rolex because of it's "history" but more because of current day marketing....a crown for every achievement and all that.....err...."stuff"....

    Cheers, Al